The rather pathetic 2002 calendar was sold to us, the endurance audience, and I suppose to the teams also as a "transitional year". There was plenty of debate about it but most people put up with it, thinking a fallow year would be worth it if the series promotors were going to put the work and resources in to get something really good for 2003 and on.
So we get to the end of 2002 and find that the 2003 calendar is almost as pathetic as last years's. Still only one 24 hour race, one 12 hour and a bunch of sprints. So where is the investment in this series that we were promised?
Sorry but that is not what we were lead to expect. More to the point, this is going to kill Endurance - this year we had scanty TV coverage and minimal crowds, and thus minimal media interest. More of the same will see the series wither and die.
Octagon have got this really, really wrong. Sure it takes time to build a series up but in order to pull the interest in, the series needs 24 hour races with all the razz-ma-tazz that the Bol and Le Mans know how to put on. Endurance racing on its own cannot gather the interest needed - the 2 people and 3 dogs that attended the laughable Silverstone round showed that. Endurance is so much more than just the track action. If the promotors do not get it right this year, it's probably too late.
It's been emotional. See you at Le Mans for some real endurance racing.
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Another doom-sayer? I wouldn't expect World
Endurance to be at the same level as GP's or
WSB's just yet. The broadening of the series from
a France-only event is moving along, although not
as fast as we all would like. WSB's took 10 years
to bring to the top level and it will be no
different for World Endurace - in fact, the
Endurance Championship is visibly growing,
whereas WSB's are going through "downsizing" at
the moment.
It's a bit of a Catch22 situation - can't get the
crowds without the coverage, can't get coverage
without money, can't get money without sponsors,
can't get sponsors without getting the crowds and
the coverage...somebody has to take the "hit"
somewhere along the line.
Yes, let's have more 24hr events...suggestions
anyone?...Silverstone, Brands Hatch...ok,
Pembrey, then...
Let's get serious and FIND the events. Philip
Island - that would be fun...at the moment they
are experimenting with a 1000km race (about 7 hrs)
in February next year. The Chinese have Zuhai and
a new track opening near Shanghai - and you can
bet that Zongshen will want that.
Howabout the former Eastern Bloc countries - they
probably haven't got the "not in my backyard"
mentality of the West just yet - Modlin in Poland?
Bring back the Hungaroring in Hungary.
Further afield, how about Kylami or Welcom in
South Africa?
Ok, let's get reasonable here - the costs of
travelling would rule out most teams doing the
series on a permanent basis if we included the
Far East, Australasia, South America, etc.
It comes down to MONEY, Eddie, not the lack of
will or lack of promotion from Octagon. It's
great for the French to sit there on their well-
developed and well-attended series - it's that
way because the French are passionate about their
Endurance Racing and the French outside of biking
still see bikers in the kind of light that Brits
could only wish for. Tell me the last time you
saw people in Britain lining the roads to "touch
the flesh" of bikers after WSB at Brands?
I must admit that this kind of whingeing really
starts to get on my wick after a while. It's easy
to moan from the outside but actually getting
your sleeves rolled up to actively SUPPORT
Edurance racing from the UK seems to be beyond
the national character. Support doesn't only mean
buying tickets to go to an event, it means trying
to make the event go with a bang, "big" it up,
promote it, push it in front of everyone you
know, be "sad" about Endurance racing...dammit,
MARKET the thing, don't moan to everybody about
how it's not as fantastic as you want it to be!
I'm hard-core about World Endurance. As Chris
Burns said, "..we only came here for a bit of fun
but when you get here...it's SERIOUS, isn't it?"
Damned straight.
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I think you've been spending too long in your
commentary box Clive - sure you're right that the
whole thing revolves around money - like the dosh
that Octagon creamed off the proper french races
for doing next to nothing to promote them.
In an uncertain commercial world sponsors need to
see a return on their investment if they are to
get involved - frankly the official series offers
next to nothing - NO real media interest (apart
from your good self) No significant spectator
numbers and most importantly races that have NO
atmosphere or sense of occasion for sponsors to
entertain their guests at.
You say someone has to take the hit - well it
ain't gonna be sponsors throwing money at a
charity. If Octagon seriously want to run a
credible championship they either have to stump
up some serious investment to run the events
properly - or more sensibly, pay the french and
belgians what they want and build the series on
that.
Eddie is not just whingeing - he and many more of
us have this sport in our blood, but our heads
are telling us that this situation needs to be
sorted quick - never mind another transitional
year!
I think you can forget the idea of far flung
races - it's difficult enough to get the budget
to do a few european races let alone freighting
kit all around the world.
One last thing - under no circumstances should a
British circuit ever host another World endurance
round - they don't have a clue how to do it - and
also appear to hate the inconvenience of having
fans on the circuit or sitting in their nice
clean grandstands.
The best bit about Silverstone was seeing the
thieves on the food stands sitting there,
forlornly looking at an unsold pile of £4.80
bacon baguettes.
Fortunately apart from Snetterton (and thats too
short for International racing) night racing is
verboten over here.
See you at Le Mans Eddie!
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I've been to all four championship rounds held in the UK since
1983 because I desperately wanted to support Endurance in
this country, but the promoters have never put any effort into
it.
In the same time I've been to 27 proper endurance races at all
four current venues. In the 80s we went to Le Mans oblivious
as to whether it was a championship round or not. It's the
event that matters to us punters, not some FIM league table.
I can't be bothered with this half-arsed WEC stuff any more, so
I may well see you in France or Belguim.
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I agree with a lot of what you say Clive, but I'm
not just whinging - from where I sit, I see a lot
of people saying that 200 mile races and sprints
are not what they want but Octagon seem to have
no interest in what the people that go to watch
endurance are telling them.
Races in Australia & China would be nice, but
would they help the series? The answer is
definitely "no". What the WEC series needs is
not more short races but a well rounded set of
good chunky races. Oschersleben seems to be well
established, so why do we need another German
round? What the series needs is probably no more
than 5 or 6 rounds in total, at least half of
which should be full 24 hour races with all the
attendent attractions. One of these must be in
France, the spiritual home of Endurance. The
other 24 hour could be well situated at Assen or
another historic track - Monza for eg. Of the
remaining 2 or 3 races, the Brno 6 hour and
Suzuka 8 hour are fine and the Spanish round fits
in with them.
Nice thought that the audience should help to
market the series! That' s exactly how it used
to be done!! People would go to the Bol, tell
their mates what a great time they'd had... how
many people would tell their mates to go to
another UK round? Octagon serouisly need to pull
their heads out from their backsides and see what
they are doing to the sport. You say it's not
just down to money, but I don't see much will or
commitment coming from Octagon - Silverstone
proved that much. So who should take the hit -
obvious. Octagon are the ones promoting the
series, and will be the ones profiting if it
takes off. "Speculate to accumulate" - so they
are the ones that should be putting in the graft
now.
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I'm not disputing anything you or Eddie say
regarding the investment needed to creat a proper
series and I agree with you on many points. What
gets up my nose is the sad fact that even people
involved in WEC in the UK seem to concentrate on
the negative instead of the positive. Maybe I'm
naive but I've never liked to criticize unless I
could offer an viable alternative, i.e. some
constructive approach to promoting and growing
the series.
If things are so bad, where are the ideas for
change to come from? (rhetorical). Why, the WEC
community...and where can they put their views
across?...why, HERE of course!
You can be damned sure that this board is
monitored quite closely by Octagon - and that
whatever radical ideas are voiced, they would be
looked at.
But what have I seen here so far?
The forum is open and I challenge anyone to come
up with ideas to move the series forward - and
I'm asking people with a vested interest here.
Of course I want to show the WEC as a dynamic and
exciting series, that IS my job, after all - and
I am in full agreement that some kind of deal
should be struck in the future regarding the
established longer races.
I will remind people, though, that taking part in
the French rounds in the past wasn't all roses -
it meant having a series that wasn't policed
properly for all teams - if you weren't French,
you took your "control" fuel from a different
drum, etc - and the WEC was meant to create a
level playing field for all. If the French
organizers cannot play by the rules, can they be
a part of the WEC?
Yes, it would be great to have Le Mans, the Bol
etc - but in the past, "interpretation" of the
rules meant it that if you were French you could
wear green and brown and shoot from behind rocks
and trees - but everyone else had to wear red and
march in a straight line.
I totally agree with the UK not having another
WEC round. We must build a hard core in the
countries that appreciate it - though it doesn't
mean ignoring these fair isles altogether.
A couple of ideas for you all to shoot down in
flames...what are the possibilities for Ireland?
How about a six or 8 hour event as part of the TT?
Come on, someone must have ideas out there!
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Well its good to see good healthy "arguments" and
that their is still real passion in this sport.
This is my two pence worth(or is it euros now).
No one can say clive dosn't do much for the
sport, he is the voice of endurance, but all
views should be considered. I agree that apart
from the new locations the new calander for 2003
doesn't inspire me. Only one 24 hour AGAIN! I
thought the 200 milers would go down well on the
TV and would bring good coverage and then the
spectators and media coverage would increase, i
was wrong. With a race lasting about 2 hours 20
min its too long for start to finish coverage, so
we get instead the start (all very good) but then
a re-run of the start and some minmal highlights
which leave you wondering what the hell happened.
This is of course if you manage to see it because
guaranteed they have changed the showing
times!!!!!! Is it just me or does the whole tv
coverage come across as tacky and poorly
produced? (no offence aimed at you clive). If 200
milers dont work for tv then why have we got them?
There are alot of teams that enter endurance
racing, and i feel for them when they work so
hard to put on a great show for the puplic and no
one turns up to watch. Octagon no dought have a
master plan but we will never get to see it.
Octagon were even getting teams to pay for their
promotoinal displays this year saying that it was
good for the whole sport, well what would be good
for the sport was if the teams spent that money
on making their own outfit look good to help them
raise good sponsorship, and Octagon did a what
they said they would do and promote the sport
well enough so that people want to watch
endurance racing (on tv or at the circuit).
24 hour racing has got to be the main body of the
series because thats what people want and it
works. Having been to leman for the bike 24hr for
many years as a spectator and with a team racing,
and received the french idea of fairness, i was
amazed this year when i saw the car 24h there. If
there is anything that should wake Octagon up to
24h racing should be the MONEY that was there!!!!
It was outstanding how big this event is and what
can be achieved. Go take a look next year i
promise you will enjoy. 24hr Racing works for tv,
spectators, sponsors, teams and so well for the
circuit and promotors that the french and belgiums
(?) won't let what they have go. Can you blame
them? No world championship status and they get
great crowds all the same!!!! I will no dought be
at an endurance race next year and spend my money
and look at the sponsors, but i bet its not in
the World Championship.....SHAME.
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Untill now i have only heard complaining about a
serie wich is 'not worth going'. first of all
everybody should be aware of the idea that if
you want to organise you need a budget Vittorio
of Octagon has only a small budget wich he has
to use for coverage ,PR, find sponsorship and so
on. If there is no race in the UK you should ask
the circuit-owners who are more or less the same
as in France(only intersted in money). Why on
earth closing the mainstand on raceday?
(Silverstone) And a little advertising could
help also(Brands-Hatch) and sorry for the guys
of MCN wich i gave then benefit of the doubt, a
coverage in their magazine wich could have done
for door to door paper before the weekend.
There are two things important wich are PR and
MONEY as said before. Here lies also a big
responsability with the teams, who have to take
care that their sponsors getting enough PR but
they have to be aware that the serie is getting
the PR wich they need. It is job for everybody
to help the serie way up. Please stop
complaining and do something. I work also with a
very small budget for service because ohlins is
not interested because there are no factory-
teams. What i want to say if we are all are doom-
thinking as we say in Holland nothing will
change in something positive.
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Thanks for the reply Eddie - and I think we'd all agree to a hard-core series in the future. I
personally don't care how many rounds we get in the end but it must include 24hr races -
plural. On "speculate to accumulate", that's just good business and I agree entirely with that.
The only problem I have is with a French round - how soon we forget the problems foreign
teams had with trying to compete on a less than level playing field. In my view, a full
endorsed World Championship would have solved this, although it seemed that the French
wanted to play the game their own way and have taken their ball with them.
I don't think it's just a question of Octagon wanting to make a profit off the existing established
events.
This is all speculation on my part; I don't have a "bug" in the boardroom...wish I did! :)
Still, l'd LOVE to know what's REALLY going on! :)
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Clive,
I suggested a long time ago when the brands
round was muted, that the only way to get it off
the ground was to join it with some sort of
event with BMF or a show so that you had the
whole of motorcycling joining in, That way you
could have a large crowd so it would be feasable
to have the extra atrractions to draw everyone
in.
i too would like to see the series grow, but at
present don't see that much has been done other
than divide the people who do get it together
and a little bit of flossing here and there.
if theres still two different series next year i
cant help but think its going to be even more
difficult for the teams, I know it was a problem
the way things were and somehow that needs to be
resolved but not having events like lemans and
spa in the world series really does do it s
image harm, especially if the WS ends up with
only 1 or even no 24 hour races in it next year.
in some ways the racing has become more
competiev than ever, but somehow it has been
losing its appeal to the people who have stuck
it out for many years, both the spectator and
the competitor.
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LeMans, Spa, the Bol that's what Endurance is
all about to me. Zuhai ? Suzuka's well out of
range so not much chance of going to the middle
of China. As for the TT didn't most racer's kill
that off in the mid 70's-- too many trees and
other obstacles. I feel we must return to the
Coup d'Endurance. of the 70/80's
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Hi Gixer_uk,
I just have to disagree with your statement that
the TV productions are "tacky and poorly
produced"...well, of course would, I'm involved
in making them :) Fabrizio and I spend many hours
poring over hot video machines to cut together
all the myriad cameras to splice a 24hr race to a
TV-friendly 52 minutes - and I personally think
that the Oschersleben coverage was some of the
best I've seen. We actually do two cuts, one for
the 52' programmes (which I create a script for)
and one for a 26' programme, which I voice.
(Imagine trying to cut a 24hr race into 26
minutes!). The programmes are sent worldwide,
some networks using the 26' and my voice, some
using the 52' and being voiced by a different
commentator. I take pains to get as much
information as possible to whoever needs it and
include as much as I can in the scripts -
although I DO expect the local commentators to do
their own research. Many times I have heard of
commentators using our coverage poorly, leading
to complaints about coverage. The video
production is top class but sometimes let down by
less than accurate research by local
commentators. I can't exactly blame them, as to
do the best job possible, you have to be onsite
at an event - but I try to do write-ups on
www.racecorporation.co.uk site as soon as
possible, with the history of past events always
being available online.
Even so, there are items even WE can miss at an
event, especially this year with TEAMS winning
the championship, not riders. With over 50 teams
competing, with up to 3 riders per team, with
riders changing rides and teams every event, even
I made a mistake regarding Karl Truchsees (who I
said was riding for Yamaha Austria at Vallelunga,
when in fact he was with the Shafer team! - and I
STILL don't know who was stretchered off after
Craig Jones went down!)
Having been on the receiving end of coverage of
World Motocross - without a full team list,
without being at the event, without onscreen lap
positions - in mud, without riders numbers or
even colour schemes being visible, I know how
hard it can be!
Unfortunately, most commentators are up against
some superb coverage (GP's for example - Toby
Moody is full time onsite at every event and
knows his onions) and we are judged against that.
Budgetary constraints, I'm afraid. The video
production for WEC is well wicked - but if it's
not interpreted properly, it won't look as good
as it really is!
Even being onsite, I'm known for getting
riders/teams etc mixed up...but when you've got
Trackdaze, for example - with 5 bikes, two-and-a-
half colour schemes and the team manager of
Roundstone riding for the Swedish team - it DOES
get confusing :)
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There are a lot of valid views expressed here,
but the main view does seem to be that the series
needs credibility more than anything else. How
that can be acheived is more difficult. Eddie's
view that more 24 hour races, rather than more
races overall seems to have a lot of merit and
also general backing from everyone.
The real issue must be the split between the
Masters and the FIM series'. That clearly
undermines the credibility of both and causes
tensions. As Clive says, the way the French
races were run in the past caused many problems
for the non-French teams but that could be sorted
out, given the will and right attitude. Octagon
are the new guys here and should be listening to
the people that know what is what.
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If you'll forgive me, Clive, I think the TV is
something of a side issue. Good quality TV
coverage is desirable, even essential, but it
must be a case of chicken and egg - the racing is
first and foremost. Get that right and the rest
will follow.
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Having read what everyone has said, there are a
lot of valid points in here. But the key to
endurance is - IT HAS TO BE ENDURANCE!
6 hours in endurance terms is a sprint! 12
hours? Good distance and makes for a different
set of strategies. But 24 hours is THE classic
distance for an endurance race and, as many
people here have said, the series NEEDS more of
them if it is going to survive.
Oschersleben have shown that a 24 hour race can
be run successfully, if you just get off your
backsides and take a look at how it is done in
other countries. Those guys went off and did
their homework - and the result is a well
attended race that runs smoothy and efficiently,
with no "home bias" in place. They also made
sure the race was well promoted.
But this seems to be the exception. The UK
rounds failed as the promotion was pathetic (this
site aside) - how many people see an advert about
three days before a race and think "Ooh, I'll go
off to that this weekend"? The minority. I know
from personal experience that going to a race is
something that was planned maybe three months in
advance - see which mates wanted to go, booking
up in advance, sorting out where to stay and so
on.
I know it is easy to just bash Octagon, but they
OWN both of the tracks that have been used in the
UK in the last couple of years - and the staff
that run them, so it's fair to say their PR
people should have been pushing these races
hard. But from what I can see, they couldn't
have told anyone anything about them, apart from
MCN the week before.
OK, it is probably a bit late now to try to
change the calendar, but unless 2004 is the end
of the series, Octagon NEED to talk to as many
circuits as they can to find out who can, and
would, put on a 24 hour race. Only when this
series has a number of 24 hour races in place
will the Masters 'problem' die down. If
the 'official' series becomes something like 6
races, three of which are 24 hour, one 12 hour, a
6 hour and Suzuka, then the teams have a real
series to aim at - the Masters would then just
become a domestic series (why race there with all
the "if you're not french, you dont' get treated
the same way" problems if you have a proper
playing field in an official championship.
I can appreciate Octagon might not have masive
resources to put into the series, but they have
to get back to basics, get the race formats
right, drop the 200 milers (fine for Imola, that
was historic, but why have them anywhere else?)
and then the rest shoud, as Twenty Four said,
follow.
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A ROUND IN AUSTRALIA IS THE GO !!!!!!
OUR LOCAL RIDERS, ON THERE OWN BIKES WOULD GIVE
70% OF TEAMS A RUN FOR THERE MONEY We Even have a
couple of all girl teams who would kick some
arse!! & I THINK The Europeans Should check it
out. Huge Crowd With the Correct Management &
Marketing TEAM, Which I would love to be a part
of!!!!!
You Must have QANTAS Airlines as a Major sponsor
& the NEW SOUTH WALES Government. Eastern Creek
would be the place to go. Close to Sydney City.
I Will travel to a round of the Championship
anywhere in OZ !! Which Could be 6800 kms DRIVE
away. We have a multiple World Champion & A Local
Junior by the name of Garry MacSlide McCoy, Who
would go into bat for an Aussie Round.
We Have not had a FIM World Championship round at
Eastern Creek Since the grand prix,When Alex C
took Mr M Doohan Out!! & Luca Cadalora Won the
race!?!? Garry MacSlide McCoy Won the 125 Race
Because of the turn 2 Hairpin, Overtaking the
Factory bikes nearly every lap. Aussie Spirit!!!!
I also think we should can the Pommie Round
Because they Whinge too much & wont get off their
arses to support FULL ON RACING!!!!!!!! They also
have no idea how to play Cricket!!!!!!!!
Where is the Spark in English Sport ????
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